Talk:House Ismay

This article has been a Featured Article of the Holocron. It is an excellent example for other articles to follow.

OOC

Please note that these constitute player characters only. If non-player characters were included, there would be well over a dozen additional persons, both alive and deceased. should be removed/rephrased to conform to the IC view. -- Qatar Shendo 19:54, 16 January 2012 (GMT)

Revert War

There is a revert war happening with this article. It might need to be arbitrated until the relevant parties can come to an agreement. -- Rupert Havok 19:32, 3 February 2012 (GMT)

Could the relevant parties please explain here what this conflict is about? --Dreighton 08:38, 13 February 2012 (GMT)

All information on the real edit, was composed initially by Asaryakatr. I significantly built on the edit, fleshing out IC history and the tree. All edits I made and information composed were posted after clearing them with family leader Owen von Ismay. Just because Owen isn't playing currently (last seen as an ASim) does not invalidate information from before he became an ASim. I would appreciate if my work and the work of the players of House Ismay was not vandalized by pretenders. Thanks. Weylin vi Cron 09:50, 13 February 2012 (GMT)

Re: Dreightons reply to Gav. The revert war is being done by a bitter ex-family member who has recreated with a different lastname, that no longer holds ties to the family (vi Cron is a lastname, thats not von Ismay). Deemed myself a pretender, when IC I aided in his previous characters death (Wilhelm von Ismay). If we want to draw ooc into this, my first character was Victor von Ismay, creator of the family in year 1. Weylin's updates are no longer relevant, and have been deemed unreliable several times with other members of the family. If he would like to have Asa, Sydney, Jesika or Owen come post their views, I am more than willing to listen. Simply put, Weylin is not part of the family, Owens/Asas permission or not. I would like to see the page ONLY editable by someone with the von Ismay lastname, or Asa, as she became a family member in year 3, but does not have the name in her handle. This edit war is stupid, and childish, I agree, and needs stopped. I'm that tired of Weylins constant edit-harassment to the point it makes my game-play less enjoyable.

Thank you. Alexander von Ismay 08:08 Combine Time, 13 February 2012

RE: Alexander's Response As someone who is associated with the Ismays, I can testify to Alexander's position. Weylin is no longer considered part of the von Ismay family since his departure (Perhaps before then by Alex but definitely since the house was restored post-Alex) and I do agree alongside Alex that it should only be a von Ismay that edits this page much like it ought to be with any other large family entity that has developed in-game.

Also Alex, you typo'd so I corrected it.

Dakha Rednax (von Ismay >.>) 20:47 GMT, 13 February 2012

I do not think that only von Ismays should be allowed to edit the page, as that is not how public wikis work, they can verify the information, but both options should be presented in a true encyclopedia style from a neutral point of view without taking any one side in particular. So I guess we need a mediator, somebody not involved with any side, who could present a somewhat objective view on the family after talking to all parties... perhaps it will result in a sentence like - "Weylin vi Cron also claims to be part of the family, however the majority of the House refuses to recognize his claim." --Xanyarr Chyakk 13:06, 14 February 2012 (GMT)

The problem you have with that, is that this Wiki doesn't operate with staff that can chronicle in a way you want it to because as you rightly pointed out it is a public wiki. So factions can post up information about themselves without sources and can use references when they need to and cannot be refuted because as a source of IC information time has passed and it becomes hard to verify with other players.

Unless the administration is willing to have a dedicated staff to compile the information, nothing said can be claimed to be truly neutral because no sources are provided as proof. How can you prove Weylin used to be part of House Ismay without a website? It's hearsay and to play on technicalities of the wording is pointless to the essence of the information. If we start adding in lines like "Weylin vi Cron claims" and "Majority don't recognize this" it can't be proven.

The wiki isn't or perhaps it is but shouldn't be about claims and hearsay, otherwise we'll have people claim all sorts of things like "Xanyarr claims to be the Emperor of the Galaxy" without any sources.

So if we have to base this on pages having a lack of cited sources then the alternative is to let families and factions make the pages and administrate over them themselves. -- Dakha Rednax 18:00 14 February 2012 (GMT)

To my knowledge SWC Administration won't apply any rulings/restrictions on the Holocron and not setup a team for it. The only option which applies here is that you sit together and talk about how "your" Family page should be setup -- Abyhsen Squeegor 18:39, 14 February 2012 (GMT)

Re: Dakha's Suggestion: Hmm. You are suggesting drastic changes to Holocron editing policy and severe restrictions on the editing of many articles. I believe such an important topic should be addressed in a separate discussion with community input. It seems unfair to punish/restrict the entire SWC wiki community simply because of the actions of a single editor. Also, even if this article was restricted to edits only by family members, this debate would still exist since Weylin claims to be a family member and thus claims the right to edit the article. As such, I agree with Xanyarr. -- Rupert Havok 19:12, 14 February 2012 (GMT)

First, I want to give special thanks and praise to Xanyarr, Abyhsen and Rupert, they perfectly explained how this situation should and will be handeled. There will be no restrictions on who may or may not edit a page. You will indeed have to find a solution acceptable to all of you. Even in real live being in control of some institution will never give you control over its image, reputation and history at the same time. The Holocron aims to follow the example of Wikipedia in presenting all common views and opinions. If we would follow the example of Wikipedia more closely, it would even mean that everyone may edit this page, except for members of House of Ismay. This would not be practical for SWC, but you should keep it in mind that being the representative of an institution rather disqualifies to write on it on Wikipedia, not the other way around. Of course we have the problem of what can be accepted as a fact within the Combine universe. Some of it can be proven, notably everything that is in the database. A House Ismay, familiy ties and family feuds are NOT included there. At the end of the day, a lot in the Combine is a work of collectively created fiction. To make this absolutely clear: The House Ismay itself is no more or less a fact or a fiction than the claim of any player that his or her character is part of said house. This indeed means that the House Ismay will have to tolerate the claim of every pretender. Every other member of the house may call this character a pretender, but you can not stop some player from inventing a background for their character however they choose. In role playing terms: God modding other player's characters is not acceptable. Note that the same is true for everyone involved. E.g. someone claiming to be part of the House Ismay, even if most members of said house disagree, is free to create a fantastic story how he is the long lost son of an NPC member of House Ismay. This is a completely legitimate fabrication for a character's background story. But he is not free to make false claims regarding the history or actions of other player characters. And now find a way to tell the story of House Ismay, so that it includes everyone who wants to be included!--Dreighton 21:23, 14 February 2012 (GMT)

You raise a very valid point Dakha, the only problem however is that finding proofs and sources for information is going to be hard EVEN with a dedicated staff. Much of IC information is either taken over from canon (which gives us sources like the Wookipedia which I'm not 100 % happy with) or hardly any IC documents exist (e.g. all the races + Planets, only the rules pages exist that only give a minimal amount of information which is why we have wookipedia in all those pages now). While I agree that hearsay and claims shouldn't be on this wiki (and I admit to slacking in removing it myself (The Maw for example with the Research Station) I also think that (while admittedly not what it was designed for) we can use WP:Consensus on FACTS as well. Obviously there WILL be problems with edit wars as this one and people disagreeing on IC information but I think it's certainly better than making this holocron another site for factions having another blown up ad space... --Qatar Shendo 21:30, 14 February 2012 (GMT)

RE: Dreightons Response: Taking on the model of Wikipedia, whilst admirable is impractical to the nature of the SWC (In my opinion) the Wikipedia is a vast and diverse website relating to millions of articles and years have gone into it to build up into a suitable system of operating. Not every comment or change on Wikipedia is accepted either. For example, the SWC page multiple times has been removed due to lack of sufficient sources in regards to it. Comments or additions on other wiki pages have been edited back out for other reasons too. The Holocron is not a large database of information and to adopt such a large operating framework based on thousands of edits to a small scaled down wiki of a game is impractical in meeting the needs of the community.

At the very LEAST any article in dispute MUST be made clear along the same lines as "This article doesn't comforn to neutral point of view" so it would appear like "The information in this article is disputed please read below" or something to show that otherwise what the reader sees is nothing more than presumed fact when in reality it's potentially disgruntled players trying to make what could be viewed as unauthorized changes. -- Dakha Rednax 21:45 14 February 2012 (GMT)

There is a template for this (Template:NPOV) and everyone is encouraged to use it whenever it seems appropriate. And there are no unauthorized changes. Every player of the Combine has full authority to edit each and every page of the Holocron. He will have to put up with all players who do not agree with his edits, though. --Dreighton 07:22, 15 February 2012 (GMT)