User talk:Sovan Theln/Arkanian

Although this race is a canon one, it isn't a valid one yet on SWC. Unless the developers plan to roll this one out anytime soon, creating a page for it or even declaring yourself a member of this race should be off-limits.--Raith Starlight 00:12, 17 January 2012 (GMT)

I agree. To speak in an IC standpoint: The race "Arkanian" doesn't exist/hasn't been discovered yet. Only thing that bugs me about that view is that the Arkanian Royal Engineers and now the Arkanian Dominion exist although the race doesn't... which really doesn't make sense IC. Still this page should probably be removed or moved to a different namespace, or to a user's space if we want to preserve it for future inclusion. Although recreating it shouldn't be a problem with the little amount of data on it. --Qatar Shendo 11:19, 17 January 2012 (GMT)

I planned on adding more to the Arkanian page soon. I'm currently editing sections at a time on the Arkanian Dominion's page, the Arkania page, and my own page, Sovan Theln. The Dominion is in fact a real NFG that is working on qualifications for faction status (membership and certain pages on website are the last qualifications we are filling). Arkania is a real planet, though currently owned by Mandalore. I am a real player, of course. Those pages also take up some time, but I am contributing every day.

Though the species Arkanian hasn't been added to SWC, it is a canon species that existed as far back as the founding of the Old Republic (though at the time, it was probably not considered Arkanian as the Arkanian species is not exactly native to Arkania. The millions of generations that the species spent on Arkania, however, makes everyone assume it to be the Arkanian homeworld. Thus, they are Arkanian) and still exists in canon to this day. The reason the Administrators provided was that there are too many "near-human" species. I would never consider Arkanian to be any closer to human than Hapans, Corellians, and other species, so I'm hoping that they'll change their mind when they see the amount of support the species has. The fact that it hasn't been implemented in SWC should not be a reason in an argument against the Arkanian Dominion or our roleplaying choices. If anything, it should be used as a reason to support our efforts as SWC isn't canon.

If you would like to hide the page from public view because it is not implemented into SWC, so be it (though I must remind you that the Holocron is supposed to be IC, and SWC itself isn't IC). I would still like to see it utilized and contributed to just as any other page is, even if it is hidden from general public view. I'd love to continue to be able to contribute to Arkanian pages because I'm a firm believer that soon, it will be a race in SWC as well. Thank you for your comments. --Sovan Theln 22:46, 17 January 2012 (GMT)

Actually as you can see there there actually is a difference between the Canon IC universe and SWC IC one. I understand what you're getting at of course and I personally like the way the Arkanian Dominion page is progressing a lot. The race Arkanian does however not exist atm. For whatever reason that may be, IC there's just not a race existent by that name. I agree that it doesn't make sense as the planet exists and to find any IC explanation of the planet being there but not the race would certainly require a... creative approach. Unfortunately the Holocron is just basically like a Galactic Database your CHARACTER accesses/edits and to have a race on there that doesn't even exist in the "real life" of the character would make even less sense than the fact of the planet existing with no race on it makes now. You are of course free to have the page in your personal User space although I don't think linking to it from the article mainspace would make sense. The whole issue is very weird and it would be the easiest if the race would just be implemented, as already a Government for a species that doesn't actually exist has been formed >.< Anyways, I'm curious to hear more oppinions on this as well. --Qatar Shendo 23:07, 17 January 2012 (GMT)

I'm going to keep using double colons so we don't get too far to the right.

I'm still going to have to disagree with that comment. Simply because the Administrators do not like the idea of too many near human races should not be a reason to neglect a page on a notable race. I am also willing to hear more opinions, but I'm sure they'll be negative ones for you are providing a rather strong argument. I would like to remind you that many species do not exist in SWC. Quite a few because of balancing issues (though Arkanians do not experience this problem as they are pretty easy to balance into the game). That doesn't mean they don't exist. Tantus Malum is another race that has a page and doesn't exist in the Combine.

How we can claim to be a simulation based in the Star Wars universe when we can't roleplay the existence of races that just haven't been given a chance is beyond me. Hapans have quite a few races that exist in canon and are mentioned in the Hapes Consortium's page (I believe it's their page. It may be a different page. I do know they mention other races that come from the Hapes Cluster), so why can't the Arkanians? All in the Dominion are avid supporters of the introduction of the Arkanian race, and we do make that clear. We can only hope that the Administrators will change their mind. I still would like to link it to the mainspace to allow others to contribute to the article. That is the purpose of a wikipedia page, after all.--Sovan Theln 23:22, 17 January 2012 (GMT)

Let's stick with alternating indents (ie 2/3 colons) so it doesn't go too far to the right and we can also distinguish between the posts. The point of this wiki is to be consistent with IC as Qatar pointed out. From browsing through Wookieepedia and a glimpse via Google, Tantus Malum that you mentioned doesn't appear to be a legitimate race even in canon unless someone has an obscure reference to it. One of the admin commented on its validity as a race/faction via Talk:Ultionis_Congregatio_Publicas_Tantus_Malum and it probably continues to exist as an article because people lost track of it. I work with Arkanian Royal Engineers and have heard of other Arkanian variants: its predecessor factions and Arkanian Micro but to date, I haven't seen a definitive claim/explanation by these factions concerning their relationship with the Arkanian race. I think someone higher-up mentioned that from a historical standpoint, the SWC IC universe is basically a divergence from the Canon universe around 1,000 years before. So the Arkanian would have existed per se but there isn't an elegant explanation to what happened to them afterward. I think we need to have the admins/developers get together and take questions from Holocron contributors to better establish guidelines. I've added a category below to group and track discussions better. The Arkanians in Canon did play with genes a bit in creating Offshoots so it would be reasonable to say that some species would have inherited genes from them so you do have a creative option to fallback on.--Raith Starlight 00:59, 18 January 2012 (GMT)

If it's true that the canon universe only diverged from ours about a thousand years back there is a more or less elegant solution to this: Mark the Arkanian article as a "legend" , so something like Arkanian (Legend) or Arkanian (Myth) or put it prominently on the page itself. That way the Arkanian Royal Engineers would make sense as well as every other faction named after an Arkanian variant, as it's completely legitimate to name your company anything you'd like (cf. The Dragon Company in real life). Then it only remains to come up with a valid IC reason for why the Arkanian Dominion knows that they are in fact a race (maybe exiled somewhere, although I don't know if again this wouldn't be inconsistent with the database) and the Dominion is just fighting to make it known that they are. Another thing: The Arkanian Dominion cannot be "avid supporters of the introduction of the Arkanian Race" in a roleplay-sense as that is a complete OOC action; the introduction itself of the Arkanian would have to be explained somehow IC. --Qatar Shendo 09:48, 18 January 2012 (GMT)

I was going to stick with two colons (as mentioned prior to your post, though you must have skipped that part) so that I can distinguish my own, but it appears that's no longer the case.

It makes no sense to diverge the SWC IC universe from the original universe from 1,000 years back and call the Arkanians a myth or a legend (because archives go far beyond that). We are between a rock and a hard place, and I do not want this page to be deleted for I enjoy adding to the Holocron. Perhaps we should reintroduce the idea of introducing the Arkanians to the Combine and provide compelling arguments as to why, this being one of them. It is a reasonable hypothesis, though I have a strong feeling that if this became so, any other Arkanian-related factions will lose any and all chances of acquiring Arkania from the Mandalore.

It is unreasonable to argue that the species became an offshoot species. Arkanians believed themselves to be the pinnacle of evolution, so why would they ever consider mixing with what they considered to be lower species? It's completely improbable.

The history doesn't end for the Arkanians as far as any book or article I've read goes. It just fades. It's improbable that they just vanished, or were killed, without any mention to their supposed extinction.

As far as being "avid supporters for the introduction of the Arkanian race", we were meaning OOC supporting in the forums. We each have the symbol of the Dominion in our avatars and/or signatures and on our own website. We're debating on having it as a minisignature much like the "I support..."s.

Arkanians are not a myth in the SW universe and since 1,000 years ago was important in the SW universe for Arkanians, it's improbable that they just stopped.

If need be, I'll settle for putting it into a separate category so that we may continue to build on it without having anyone fight us over it for not being a race in Combine. It was suggested earlier in this talk page, and it still irritates me, but it may be the only choice we have. It would irritate everyone involved in our projects if pages like this get deleted because it mentions a hopeful race.

Have there been any other cases along these lines before? What happened to those precedents? --Sovan Theln 21:39, 18 January 2012 (GMT)

For issues that haven't been dealt with by the developers, we tend to keep things vague so that it is possible to salvage after the die has been set. For example, the 'Arkanian' name in ARE could refer to the race, the planet, some made-up predecessor organization that existed within the 1,000 year divergence or even an idea (the pursuit of knowledge). Keeping things vague gives you more options and prevents you from contradicting the developers. If the developers say "the Arkanians are extinct because they had a huge inter-species orgy and spread their genetic materials too thin 600 years ago", that is how it is since they are the authority here. You're lucky that the Arkanian race doesn't fall under unacceptable categories or are currently banned as indicated by the Rules and Standards for Race Suggestions. As for precedents, I haven't seen anyone bold enough to declare a race in the Holocron first and then work towards establishing the race afterwards. There are two previous race submissions that you may want to look at: Submission 1 and Submission 2 and a wiki that preceded this one that you can mine for more information. I suggest handling your cause in the Race Suggestions forum and leaving the Holocron to hold information that is reliable and up to the Holocron policies and guidelines that Qatar brought up previously.--Raith Starlight 01:14, 19 January 2012 (GMT)

I've already read the forums and I read the rules before I make any action. Luck has nothing to do with it. You'll notice we are all very bold here in the Arkanian Dominion, and I'm sure you'll hear much more of us as time progresses (positive things, of course). We've read the precedents and are currently taking them as is and are building on them for a reintroduction to the original thread (so we do not break the rules by posting a second thread, and possibly with permission from an Admin for clarification). If we do not mount a case, we believe, then we have no chance in changing players such as Ellias Aubec's mind towards near-human races. Reliability has nothing to do with it and so you shouldn't have even placed that in this discussion. It comes across as an insult and because I have not insulted you, you should at least give me the same treatment. I am, after all, one who is attempting to add to the Holocron (many more don't as opposed to do). --Sovan Theln 01:34, 19 January 2012 (GMT)

Sovan, I think we all can see that the Arkanian race has supporters, and I do agree that you actually spending time to discuss this with us is an argument for introduction. It shows that you actually informed yourself about this race and are ready to give it a decent history and such. But it's not the Holocron's job to give arguments for an introduction... I don't think neither Raith nor me are trying to insult your race or roleplaying choice or whatever. I think it's great that you want to roleplay your race as much, but that doesn't change the fact it hasn't (in the combine) existed for over a 1000 years. To me right now it comes across as an insult that you are trying to leave this article in place without trying to understand our argument (or if you are I'm at least not seeing it). Look at it like this: I, as Qatar Shendo decide to check out the "Holocron" (so Wikipedia for Qatar). I now find the Arkanian article and it looks just like any other article for an existent race. Qatar now HAS to assume that there is in fact the Arkanian race living on the planet Arkania. Which it is not, which makes the article false (and obviously something we don't want) and is what has gotten us into this whole discussion. The page has to make it at least somewhat obvious to Qatar that there is NO Arkanian alive right now. To come up with a reason for that is admittedly hard, but as Raith stated it's probably the easiest to just leave it very vague. Still at some point Qatar needs to go: "Aha, there once was an Arkanian race but it's not here anymore". If you can manage to give that idea in the article I don't have a problem with it staying in the main article space. You are right that in 1000 years it doesn't have to have turned into a myth or legend, sorry for suggesting that. But right now the article would be as if I went to create an article on Wikipedia about a forgotten dog breed that nobody has seen in 200 years and state: "The race bla is a kind of dog mostly living in Europe". Which of course would be shot down as it's NOT actually existent anymore. As I said before: neither of us are trying to insult you or the Arkanian race, but you're the one flaming me for double-indenting my comment even though Raith proposed we alternate between double and tripple indentions.... --Qatar Shendo 16:41, 19 January 2012 (GMT)

Thank you for your compliments Qatar. What I took as an insult was his statement that the Holocron is only for 'reliable' articles. I try my hardest to use sources that I find via website (including novels) to create an article. I do understand the difference between IC-SWC and IC-Canon, though this section is a fuzzy one. I do not like leaving things vague, so if it is allowed, I still would like to continue to contribute to the page for the (crosses fingers) eventual release of the race. I will, however, leave my race on my own personal page unstated, if that is alright. I am not flaming you with the comment about the indentions. I suggested the indentions first, and yet Raith, in my eyes, passed off the suggestion as his own. If it ends this conversation (we're both right, in some sense if I may say so, so it's best to just compromise), then I'm alright with taking the page off the main. I'm unsure of how to alter it so that I can continue to edit it without it being taken down (of course I'll unlink it with other pages). If need be, *sigh*, we can take down the page. Oh, and my dog is the finest of the Bla species. :P --Sovan Theln 02:22, 20 January 2012 (GMT)

I'm glad that we're more of on the same page now! ;) I'm fine with the page being moved to your personal user space of course. I was still waiting for any more oppinions from other contributors, but it seems like there aren't that many people interested in jumping in here. And I'd like to see a picture of your Bla species dog :P --Qatar Shendo 17:24, 21 January 2012 (GMT)

Aye. Just let me know where my personal user space is and I'll move it there. Other contributors probably don't even know this discussion is going on, let alone their interest in jumping in. If you are interested in supporting this race being added, I do have a userbar for the forums. I'd love it if you would support, but I understand if you don't. And my Bla is scared of the camera. Sorry, you'll just have to use your imagination. :P --Sovan Theln 23:00, 22 January 2012 (GMT)

There are many things in the SWC universe that we RP with that do not exist in the rules or the database. They can still be on the wiki. But anyone making an article on any of it on this wiki should really ask himself, if they have any relevance to people, events or institutions in the universe of SWC. He should also ask himself, if it may mislead people to making wrong assumption of the role of it in the SWC universe (Quatar pointed this out nicely). Do not populate this wiki with material from the canon SW universe, it it is mostly irrelevant for SWC. Neither use it as a way to introduce your own ideas, if it is just or mostly that: your own idea. This wiki should mostly include things that have some relevance and notority in the SWC universe. This can include creatively invented material. Let me use a (fictional) example: If we have 20 GNS postings detailing the famous adventures of the well known pure bread Alderaanian cat of the emperor, said Alderaanian cat may get her own entry here, even if we don't have pets, Alderaanian cats or this particular cat implemented in any way or form (rules, database etc). But it would still be relevant, because it is an accepted part of SWC folklore. The closer you stick to what we undebatedly have in SWC, the better. Aside of this: Good discussion, thanks for putting your time and effort into it. There are often no clear cut answers what belongs here and what doesn't, so talking about it is the right way.--Dreighton 05:33, 1 February 2012 (GMT)